Nic. About the eyes.

  Soc. And when he considers whether he shall set a bridle on a
horse and at what time, he is thinking of the horse and not of the
bridle?

  Nic. True.

  Soc. And in a word, when he considers anything for the sake of
another thing, he thinks of the end and not of the means?

  Nic. Certainly.

  Soc. And when you call in an adviser, you should see whether he
too is skilful in the accomplishment of the end which you have in
view?

  Nic. Most true.

  Soc. And at present we have in view some knowledge, of which the end
is the soul of youth?

  Nic. Yes.

  Soc. And we are enquiring, Which of us is skilful or successful in
the treatment of the soul, and which of us has had good teachers?

  La. Well but, Socrates; did you never observe that some persons, who
have had no teachers, are more skilful than those who have, in some
things?

  Soc. Yes, Laches, I have observed that; but you would not be very
willing to trust them if they only professed to be masters of their
art, unless they could show some proof of their skill or excellence in
one or more works.

  La. That is true.

  Soc. And therefore, Laches and Nicias, as Lysimachus and Melesias,
in their anxiety to improve the minds of their sons, have asked our
advice about them, we too should tell them who our teachers were, if
we say that we have had any, and prove them to be in the first place
men of merit and experienced trainers of the minds of youth and also
to have been really our teachers. Or if any of us says that he has
no teacher, but that he has works of his own to show; then he should
point out to them what Athenians or strangers, bond or free, he is
generally acknowledged to have improved. But if he can show neither
teachers nor works, then he should tell them to look out for others;
and not run the risk of spoiling the children of friends, and
thereby incurring the most formidable accusation which can be
brought against any one by those nearest to him. As for myself,
Lysimachus and Melesias, I am the first to confess that I have never
had a teacher of the art of virtue; although I have always from my
earliest youth desired to have one. But I am too poor to give money to
the Sophists, who are the only professors of moral improvement; and to
this day I have never been able to discover the art myself, though I
should not be surprised if Nicias or Laches may have discovered or
learned it; for they are far wealthier than I am, and may therefore
have learnt of others. And they are older too; so that they have had
more time to make the discovery. And I really believe that they are
able to educate a man; for unless they had been confident in their own
knowledge, they would never have spoken thus decidedly of the pursuits
which are advantageous or hurtful to a young man. I repose
confidence in both of them; but I am surprised to find that they
differ from one another. And therefore, Lysimachus, as Laches
suggested that you should detain me, and not let me go until I
answered, I in turn earnestly beseech and advise you to detain
Laches and Nicias, and question them. I would have you say to them:
Socrates avers that he has no knowledge of the matter-he is unable
to decide which of you speaks truly; neither discoverer nor student is
he of anything of the kind. But you, Laches and Nicias, should each of
you tell us who is the most skilful educator whom you have ever known;
and whether you invented the art yourselves, or learned of another;
and if you learned, who were your respective teachers, and who were
their brothers in the art; and then, if you are too much occupied in
politics to teach us yourselves, let us go to them, and present them
with gifts, or make interest with them, or both, in the hope that they
may be induced to take charge of our children and of yours; and then
they will not grow up inferior, and disgrace their ancestors. But if
you are yourselves original discoverers in that field, give us some
proof of your skill. Who are they who, having been inferior persons,
have become under your care good and noble? For if this is your
first attempt at education, there is a danger that you may be trying
the experiment, not on the "vile corpus" of a Carian slave, but on
your own sons, or the sons of your friend, and, as the proverb says,
"break the large vessel in learning to make pots." Tell us then,
what qualities you claim or do not claim. Make them tell you that,
Lysimachus, and do not let them off.

  Lys. I very much approve of the words of Socrates, my friends; but
you, Nicias and Laches, must determine whether you will be questioned,
and give an explanation about matters of this sort. Assuredly, I and
Melesias would be greatly pleased to hear you answer the questions
which Socrates asks, if you will: for I began by saying that we took
you into our counsels because we thought that you would have
attended to the subject, especially as you have children who, like our
own, are nearly of an age to be educated. Well, then, if you have no
objection, suppose that you take Socrates into partnership; and do you
and he ask and answer one another's questions: for, as he has well